Rule Clarification: Re-holstering cocked revolvers and discarding rifles

[Anita Margarita]

There is a thread on the SASS Wire that starts out about discarding rifles, but then turns to a discussion about when penalties apply to revolvers going back into the holster cocked and not cocked.  You can read the whole thing as it develops here:

https://www.sassnet.com/forums/index.php?/topic/267871-clarification-of-rule-need-help/&

The thread is confusing because so many participants post wrong info and are later corrected, but Pale Wolf Brunelle (the official SASS rules guru) has clarified both of these issues:

On the topic of rifles:

- If you put down a rifle with an empty brass on the carrier or in the chamber, you can go back and remove the brass before the next gun is fired with no penalty. 

- If you put down a rifle with a live round on the carrier, you can also go back and remove the round with no penalty before the next gun is fired.  In both of these situations, if the condition of the gun is not remedied, the penalty is a MSV. 

- If you put down a rifle with a live round *in the chamber* there is no remedying the situation and the penalty is a Stage DQ.

On the topic of pistols:

Situation A - A shooter of any category attempts to holster a gun that is cocked. 

1) If the gun is in the holster and the shooter has removed his hand, it is a Stage DQ.  The penalty for "holstering a cocked revolver" is actually the SDQ for a "cocked revolver leaving the shooter's hands."

2) If the gun is in the holster but the shooter has not removed his hand from the gun, the shooter can re-draw the gun and point it downrange and pull the trigger (or with explicit permission from the TO, de-cock the gun pointed downrange) and receive no penalty.

Situation B - A shooter of any category (including Gunfighter) loses count of the rounds fired and *accidentally* holsters a non-cocked revolver with rounds still in it (but not under the hammer).

1) The shooter may redraw the gun and complete the pistol sequence with no penalty before the next type of firearm is used.  (Non-Gunfighters must be careful in this situation not to have two *loaded* guns out at one time or they will get a P for shooting out of category)

2) The shooter may chose not to redraw the gun and the only penalty will be Misses for the unfired rounds.

3) If the shooter has cocked/pulled trigger enough times to where he is not sure if a live round is under the hammer or not, the best option is to declare a “gun malfunction” and put the gun down on a table/prop. Holstering a gun with a live round under the hammer - cocked or not - is a Stage DQ.

Situation C - (Applies to Gunfighters only) A Gunfighter is shooting a split pistol stage (e.g. first five pistol shots from one location and second five from another location, or another gun between the two pistol strings) and *purposely* reholsters loaded gun(s) with the intention of shooting them later. The penalty is a P is for “shooting out of category.” The key to this call is *intent.*  Losing count of shots and accidentally reholstering is not a penalty for any shooter, including a gunfighter. A Gunfighter is allowed to correct the situation with NO PENALTY as long as the revolvers are "out of leather" before changing location or firing another firearm. (<--This last sentence seems to be something new that I do not remember being in effect before. - AM)

For the purposes of a gunfighter moving to a new location, the definition of holstered is when "the muzzle enters the mouth of the holster."  I think this means that when running to a new location for your second five shots, you can't have the muzzles in the holsters and claim your guns were not "fully" holstered to avoid the penalty. (But, I could be wrong on this bit....)

Did anyone else read this SASS Wire thread?  Did you interpret it this way?

AM

[Keystone]

Hola,

Would the traveling basketball type rule (moving both feet) be in effect with regard to changing position for a gunfighter who has holstered his pistols and wishes to correct the situation by safely drawing pistols and pointing them down range and then changing position? Would it matter if the gunfighter released his grip on the pistols as long both feet weren't moved? I know, don't answer a question with another question but I think traveling(moving both feet) could make a difference as might release of the pistols.

PS There is a rule clarification on the CATEGORY MATRIX on page 10 with regards to categories at local club monthly & annual matches that opens up the categories that may be offered.

[Uncle Ethan]

"For the purposes of a gunfighter moving to a new location, the definition of holstered is when "the muzzle enters the mouth of the holster."  I think this means that when running to a new location for your second five shots, you can't have the muzzles in the holsters and claim your guns were not "fully" holstered to avoid the penalty. (But, I could be wrong on this bit....)"

I copied this from the Shooters handbook.

A Gunfighter may not holster revolvers with the intent to engage another
revolver sequence.
o Stage design may allow a competitor shooting Gunfighter style to stage or
restage revolvers between target sequences. If the shooter’s hands are
otherwise constrained (e.g., rolling the dice between revolver sequences),
the revolvers must be drawn and shot one at a time (double duelist) unless
they can be safely staged rather than holstered.]In this case, both revolvers
may be employed at the same time for the first five rounds, safely restaged,
and then employed at the same time again for the second five rounds.

Safe Conditions During a Course of Fire – Revolvers
Revolvers are considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while holstering, or while moving
through a stage) and SAFE to leave the shooter’s hand in the following conditions ONLY:
- Hammer fully down on an empty chamber.
- Hammer fully down on an expended round. A revolver may not be originally
staged in this condition, but may be restaged in this condition.
- GUNFIGHTER shooting style considerations: When shooting Gunfighter style, a
gunfighter may not holster revolvers with the intent to engage another sequence.
(See Gunfighter Rules).

Pretty clear you can't re-holster with intent to engage another sequence. I am not sure how you could say the gun is not holstered with the muzzles in the holsters. Hands still on grips?
I would say guns were holstered.

[Anita Margarita]

Keystone,

I don't know anything about how this is applied.  Unless I am missing something, I think this is a brand new thing that just showed up in the new Shooters Handbook.  Pale Wolf quoted this in the SASS Wire thread, but I had never seen it before.

Uncle Ethan,

In the SASS Wire thread, Pale Wolf says (second page, 5th post):

Here is the complete text of that GUNFIGHTER-STYLE clarification:

ROC additional clarifications related to the application of the recently clarified definition of "HOLSTERED":

"...as soon as the muzzle ENTERS the mouth of the holster, the revolver is no longer "in hand" and is now HOLSTERED as far as GF rules are concerned."

** A GUNFIGHTER is allowed to correct the situation with NO PENALTY as long as the revolvers are "out of leather" before changing location or firing another firearm during stage engagement if revolver(s) are "holstered" after firing the first 5 rounds.

*********************

Is that last sentence something new?  I thought once you holstered, you got the penalty. I did not know there was a provision for remedying the situation.

AM

[Randy Saint Eagle]

Anita, I could be wrong but I think Gunfighters have always had the same ability as anyone else when accidentally holstering a pistol with a live round still in it. you can redraw to finish the sequence providing another gun hasn't been fired or redraw and move to a second shooting location.

This year at EOT during a Warm-up match we had a young Gunfighter draw both pistols, fire 5, place both guns back in the holsters and hold on to them while moving to the next shooting location. We told him that was against the rules and to be sure he didn't do that in the Main Match. He argued that it was ok until half the posse told him he was wrong. I think he still went to a Match Director before he was convinced we were correct.

Thanks
Randy