This is the post by Tombstone from the old forum on the 2015 voting items and discussion items for the TG meeting:
Here are the voting items on the agenda for the TG Meeting, The voting items are for rule changes, the Clarifications are for current rules. If you have an opinion please post here or let me know. I will take a vote for the club and if I can’t go to the convention I will send our proxy for voting.
SASS 2015 TG Summit Agenda
DISCUSSION ITEMS:
1) Shall we consider a change to the maximum number of “P”s per stage to two…or one per gun/type of firearm. Also, should we reclassify “P”s for “stage/target engagement” issues vs “out of category” progressive penalties.
Discussion points: This might alleviate the problem of some shooters committing multiple “P” violations, knowing they can only receive one. Many times this would be an SOG situation, but proving intent can be problematic; besides the reluctance on the part of most T/Os in assessing the additional 30-second penalty.
2) NON-SASS matches sometimes allow NON-SASS legal firearms. Clubs advertising as “SASS-affiliated” need to follow SASS rules.
Discussion points: Example would be a club that allows “new shooters” to compete in monthly match settings with DA revolvers, hammer-less pump shotguns (e.g. 870) and other “illegal” equipment. Those wishing to “try out” the stages with other types of firearms should do so outside of the actual match environment.
3) The wearing of “logo’d” outerwear during inclement weather (up to, but not ON the stage), particularly during cold/wet seasons.
4) Suggestion from some TGs regarding attendance at the TG Summit. Should a TG be "present to vote”?
Discussion points: Territorial Governors carrying proxy votes should either ask the clubs they’re representing if and under what circumstances (e.g. specific amendments) they may change the club vote. TGs should also be given that same leeway by the clubs they represent directly if they can be convinced through additional information that an agenda item would be for the betterment of the sport.
5) Should the RO1 Course materials be amended to disallow CRO/TOs running the timer for family members?
Considerations: Some family members, especially Buckaroo/ettes benefit from having a family member running the timer. Better able to coach through any problems due to familiarity with equipment. Same applies to spouses and offspring. Just as much, if not more, “buddy posse” cheating than among family members. Positives outweigh the negatives of having family members run the timer.
Issues: “fortuitous interference” and “re-shoots” should be “peer pressure” regulating. Some smaller clubs have a limited number of qualified T/Os.
6) Should the “B” Western rules be amended to allow “any SASS-legal rifle”?
We need to hear from the BW shooters. ROC recommendation to “leave BW rules alone”.
7) Classic Cowboy/Cowgirl: rifle (all firearms) cutoff change to 1880.
Discussion points: This would allow the TTN 1878 Colt SxS hammer gun but NOT the 1887
Winchester lever action shotgun in the category. Would also disallow the Remington 1890
revolver, and other models of a later date. We need to hear from Classics on these issues?
8.) Should chaps and spurs be MANDATORY in the “Classic Cowboy/Cowgirl” category?
Considerations: heat issues in some parts of the country. Also how do we apply this to Classic Cowgirls?
9) Should Territorial Governors (TGs) be required to take a Mandatory RO I and/or RO II refresher at least every two (2) years?
TGs are charged with providing up-to-date info on rule/policy changes & clarifications to their respective club members, as per the Description of Duties listed on the SASS website. As such, they should be knowledgeable in regard to all
SASS rules and clarifications.
VOTING ITEMS: (Note: Some of the above Discussion Items may become voting items)
1) Should the rules be changed to allow the inclusion of "sub-gauge" shotguns such as 28 and 32 gauge for Buckaroos/Buckarettes?
The ROC recommends a “YES” vote.
2) Should the MSV for retrieval of dropped/ejected ammo be deleted?
Discussion points: Under the current rules, a shooter may stage ammo (including ON THE GROUND) for later retrieval during the stage. There is NO DIFFERENCE between reaching for rounds that have been staged purposely and rounds that land on a table after having been dropped or ejected? One still has to maintain muzzle control while reaching for the rounds in either case.
As a side note, WBAS rules have allowed retrieval of dropped ammo/magazines for the past 6+ years with NO SAFETY violations for muzzle break or dropped firearms while doing so.
The ROC believes that retrieval of dropped ejected rounds can be done safely, and if the muzzle breaks the 170 degree, we already have rules in place to assess a penalty.
The ROC recommends a “yes” vote. A “yes” vote would remove ALL REFERENCES to “dropped/ejected ammo” from the rulebooks and associated clarifications (also the Lazarus Rule).
3) Should the equipment regulations for GUNFIGHTER-style shooters be changed to allow the “butt forward” carry/Cavalry “twist” draw?
The butt forward drawing/holstering method is currently allowed for all other shooting styles in SASS. The primary objection has been that the T/O cannot see both revolvers at the same time. This is true whether carrying/drawing butt-forward or from “two standard holsters” (current rule). Spotters are assigned to watch for any safety issues that the T/O might not be in position to observe. If a shooter is unable to SAFELY use this method, they WILL BE penalized by the safety rules currently in place.
Moreover, canted holsters do NOT create an issue with this rule change, as the same restrictions against breaking the 180º apply to ALL HOLSTERS and METHODS of DRAW/RE-HOLSTER.
We should reiterate that the “straight hang” allowance applies to ALL types/styles of holsters, from canted double strong side to X-draw, to shoulder/Huckleberry rigs. As long as the muzzle of a revolver goes from the straight down 180º as it clears leather; then immediately into the DOWNRANGE 170º (and vice versa on the return) the shooter is OK.
There are videos available showing other SAFE methods.
The ROC recommends a “YES” vote.
4) Should the penalty for not holstering revolvers at the end of the revolver shooting string be changed from a MSV to a Procedural penalty?
Discussion points: Currently the SASS Stage Convention is: Revolvers must be holstered at the end of the shooting string unless otherwise stated in the stage description. The ROC believes that failure to re-holster at the end of the revolver strong is NOT SAFETY issue. Changing the penalty from a MSV to a “Procedural” penalty is far more appropriate and more in keeping with the “type” of penalty.
There are some “unintended consequences” which need to be considered: A shooter could already have one “P” on the stage for some other reason, and then NOT re-holster to save time, knowing that only one “P" may be assessed.
If it can be determined that the shooter did so on purpose for a competitive advantage (e.g. to make up some of the time penalty for the initial “P”), then a “Spirit of the Game” penalty could be assessed. This is a situation that is correctable on the clock before the next gun is fired.
The ROC recommends a “YES” vote.
5) Should the penalty regarding a shooter NOT complying with the CRO/TO commands of “cease fire” or “stop” while on the firing line be changed from a Match DQ to a Stage DQ?
Discussion points: Currently the rule for a shooter not complying with the commands of the CRO/TO is a MDQ. There is a perception that this rule is rather harsh for the first offense, and that a SDQ is more appropriate
The ROC recommends a “YES” vote.
CLARIFICATIONS FROM the ROC:
1) Definition of “Designer Jeans” (Outlawed item) - “Designer Jeans” refers to those modern jeans that have slogans or logos embroidered, silk screened and such, saying things like “PINK” or “BABY”. (Jeans with fancy or flashy adornments are acceptable)
2) Welding the firing pin in the bolt of a rifle so as to cause a “slam-fire” situation when levering the action (without the need to manipulate the trigger or hammer) is an ILLEGAL MODIFICATION subject to DISQUALIFICATION PENALTIES. REF: SHB p.4
3) Definition of “short sleeve shirt” for men’s clothing:
A shirt with sleeves that do NOT extend to the wrist.
Note: Rolling up a long sleeve shirt is acceptable, but fastening a rolled up shirt sleeve in place is the same as short sleeve; either of which are Outlawed/Prohibited and subject to DQ penalties.
4) Regarding the CRO/TO’s command of “CEASE FIRE” or “STOP”, and a failure of the shooter to comply with this command, the language will be changed to read “…..the shooter WILL receive a MDQ ……”. Should the voting item be passed the shooter WILL receive a SDQ for not complying with the CRO/TO “cease fire” or “stop command”.
The Range Command of “Cease Fire” or “Stop” as given by the CRO/TO must be followed by the shooter, as it may have serious safety consequences.
5) The point at which the “failure to adhere to loading/unloading procedure” SDQ applies is as follows: “Once control of the firearm(s) is relinquished, be it in a rack on the stage or at the shooter’s gun cart. (i.e. leaves the shooter’s hands)”
6) The only ammunition you can use on the stage is ammunition you initially bring to the line – you can’t run to your cart for ammunition or even to get another firearm. In other words, you can’t leave the "firing line" (as defined in the RO1 "Glossary of Terms") once you start the stage, and until all firearms have been verified as clear.
7) The action of a CRO/TO saving a long gun from falling over, still results in a penalty for the shooter. Basically if the CRO/TO had not been present to save the shooter from a penalty such as this, and the long gun would have fallen over regardless, then the penalty would still apply. The CRO/TO was just there to save the firearm from getting dirt on it!
Note: This is the only way to apply a penalty such as this, as some TOs may not be able to save the rifle from falling, and it would not be fair for those shooters who receive the penalty purely because of the action / inaction of their particular TO.
8.) Revolvers (loaded or empty) that fall to the ground while holstered (e.g. gun belt buckle breaks) is a NO CALL, provided they remain holstered. The SHB and RO Manuals will be revised to read: “A dropped unloaded firearm on the firing line (from the loading table to the unloading table) results in the shooter’s disqualification from the stage. A dropped loaded firearm results in a match disqualification. A shooter may not pick up a dropped firearm. The Range Officer will recover the firearm, examine it, clear it, and return it to the shooter. This does NOT apply to holstered revolvers that remain “in leather” in the event of an equipment failure (e.g. broken belt buckle) causing the gun/ammo belt to fall. Shooters may safely recover a fallen gun/ammo belt and continue finishing the stage without penalty. SHB p.25/RO1 p.18”
9) All rounds (live or empty) from the firearm in question MUST be cleared before the next gun of the stage is fired (or before leaving the shooter's hands if it's the last gun of the stage). This applies to all types of long guns. The language of the rule as written, "...of the gun in which it was loaded..." gives the clarification regarding a rifle round falling into the shotgun, which would be a NO CALL. In a different situation, if a shotgun hull comes out of a 97 but falls back in the port as the shotgun is put down and then not cleared before then next firearm is cleared, it IS still a MSV(this includes empty rifle case falling off hat into open rifle action after being set down).
Not bringing enough ammo to the line is NOT a “P” (just misses for un-fired rounds). The “P” in this case would only apply to ammo (like firearms) when not correctly staged on the line (e.g. on/in a prop), and not corrected by the shooter on the clock. The definitions in the SHB and RO Manuals will be revised to clarify.
