Oak Ridge Outlaws Forum
Meanwhile, back at the ranch... => General Discussion => Topic started by: Tombstone on December 14, 2022, 08:28:24 AM
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See post below
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Tombstone, your post got truncated before the finish of option 1.
Sam
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It does show up, in full, on the Ocoee forum.
Sam
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Tombstone is having trouble posting the whole message. Here is the complete text:
VOTING ITEMS - INFORMATION
ITEM #1 - Allowing competitors to shoot Gunfighter style in the Junior Category.
OPTION 1: (VOTE NO) - No change. Under current Gunfighter category rules, Gunfighter is an open category. (No age restrictions). A Junior could shoot in the Gunfighter category.
SHB p. 10: Above the Base Categories listed in this handbook, the local club monthly match and club annual match level, all SASS recognized shooting categories may be offered by subdividing by all factors, including age, gender, shooting style, and propellant.
*Shooting categories offered at any match are ultimately at the discretion of the Match Officials to ensure the success and viability of each match individually.
OPTION 2: (VOTE YES) Allow Gunfighter-style in the Junior category as follows:
SHB p.5:
AGE BASED CATEGORIES
Age based categories are offered to allow all participants to compete amongst their peers. Age based categories carry the following guidelines:
- May use any main match revolver.
- Revolvers may be shot in any SASS legal shooting style - EXCEPT Gunfighter.
* Junior category shooters may shoot Gunfighter-style under close supervision.
ITEM #2 - Revised BP Standard
(VOTE YES OR NO)
A majority YES vote on this item will result in the Shooters Handbook being edited to read as follows:
SHB p. 25
Power Factor / Blackpowder Smoke - Testing
... Testing of blackpowder rounds for the production of adequate smoke will also be conducted in a similar manner as described above. Rounds should be obtained from the shooters loaded firearms while at the loading table. The rounds should be fired in comparison to test rounds made using the following load data:
- Standard .38 Special case
- 125 or 158 grain bullet
- Any common substitute
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I think I have made a change to the forum now so that messages will not be truncated when it encounters certain special characters. At least I hope I have done that.... :)
AM
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Thank you very much,
For discussion item 1 pretty much add Jr Gunfighter as a category. Right now the wording allows Juniors to shoot GF "under close observation" or something like that, but they are still shooting GF. It would be pretty daunting to have to shoot against some of the GF's as a Junior.
I like the idea
Item 2 is a smoke requirement for BP. After all the discussion and questions on smoke factor I also like this idea.
I will vote how ever the club directs,
Please reply here.
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I'd like to hear other opinions on Item 1, but my first reaction is that if a Junior is really capable of shooting Gunfighter style, he/she ought to shoot in the Gunfighter category. This also keeps the rules for all "age-based categories" consistent in not allowing Gunfighter style.
What do others think?
AM
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Power Factor / Blackpowder Smoke - Testing
... Testing of blackpowder rounds for the production of adequate smoke will also be conducted in a similar manner as described above. Rounds should be obtained from the shooters loaded firearms while at the loading table. The rounds should be fired in comparison to test rounds made using the following load data:
- Standard .38 Special case
- 125 or 158 grain bullet
- Any common substitute
So the standard will be based on substitute black powder? That sure doesn't seem right. From what I understand, many of the "common substitutes" are super smokey.
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What I am reading on the Forum is that item 1 would allow GF style in Junior category. Right now I think it says they can shoot any style except for GF.
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I agree with Anita. No Gunfighter in age based categories. Jackalope I was shooting APP Saturday. I was using just over 1.3cc in my loads. That's all that would fit in my cases. Might try loading some 357s up. Lol.
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So if you want to shoot GF you have to compete with the likes of Missouri Lefty and Sidekick until they age out of GF? Does not seem to encourage young shooters to try GF.
They have changed to due date on the vote until 1/30/23 so we will be holding a vote at our next shoot and I will tab it with the forum vote.
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Item 1. Allowing Juniors to shoot GF in that category. This is being compared to B Western that allows you to shoot any style. They can shoot duelist now. They could just shoot in duelist category. I think it's a good idea to allow them to shoot GF. Let's them take the next step in their age group.
Item 2. As I don't practice the black art, I would have to abstain
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1. No
2. No
Requirement for the test round isn't specific enough.
As a former and occasional dabbler in the dark arts I see nothing wrong with the current rule.
I understand Goex is no more, but there are other real bp' s out there.
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I can't seem to make-up my mind on the junior gunfighter issue...
I'm OK with the smoke test tho.
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My vote will be through Wartrace so I don't have a dog in the hunt here but I would like to offer a question? I have been undecided on this and leaned both way until I got to thinking about this. I know that as long as I’ve been in SASS we’ve had Junior shooters that were capable of being the Overall winner in any of the matches we have and I expect we always will have. My question is will a 16 year old Junior who is able to pick stages to shoot Traditional style or Gunfighter style depending on the stage have an advantage over a 17 year old shooter who has to pick Traditional style or Gunfighter style for the entire match, if both are in competition for the Overall Win?
Thanks
Randy
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Randy brings up a good question. We hear it all the time, this or that stage favors gunfighter or traditional style. So with that said, looks like if you could shoot any style during a match, you would have an advantage over someone who just shoots one style.
My original post on this was in favor with the idea of allowing Juniors to try different styles. B Western can do this. Why is this?
There are two offical shooting style categories, duelist and gunfighter, but looks like duelist style can be shot in the age based categories. Why?
From the TG notes it was considered to let you shoot gunfighter in any age based categories. I haven't been around long enough to know the answers. I know safety was a big consideration when gunfighter came around.
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Why not allow all age groups to do it? Some one or some people at the TG meeting at EOT thought it might dilute or do away with the Gunfighter category. One of them threw that out in a reply to me on the wire. It wasn't safety because they would allow teenagers to do it. But they can already shoot Gunfighter in the Gunfighter category. So I guess it's all about juniors being able to win buckles. I just think it's a dumb rule and if it needs to be changed do it for everyone.
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I've thought about this some more and my vote remains NO, Juniors should not be allowed to shoot gunfighter style in their age-based category.
I also do not believe gunfighter style should be allowed in any age-based category.
AM
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Gunfighter style should not be allowed in ANY age-based category. If a junior has the ability to shoot gunfighter, they should sign up for gunfighter category if that's the style they prefer. And, yes. They might have to compete with Lefty, Wil, Billy and all those other hot rods, just like when they turn 17.
For that matter, in my opinion, gunfighter style should not be allowed in B-Western, either. I've never seen any competitive shooter decide that gunfighter style was an advantage over shooting any stage two-handed.
As far as the smoke standard issue is concerned, I'm not convinced we're getting the entire story on this. If the new standard will be based on volume or weight of substitute BP, I vote NO. If the new standard will be based on the apparent "equivalence" of smoke/visual obstruction, then it really doesn't matter if the smoke is caused by real v. synthetic BP. From a match director point of view, what are the specifics? Weighed powder charges? What standard will be used to determine that x grains of APP is equal to y grains of Goex FFg? I'll vote NO on this until the details are clearly explained.
Jackalope, who is unlikely to be accused of not making enough smoke.
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Jackalop, of all the things I am sure of and will stand behind, your loads will never be questioned.
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I will be at the match on Saturday to take a vote on these issues, however, reading the commits here it looks like
No on GF in Jr catagory
No on Smoke factor until it is cleared (pun intended) up on some questions.
Is that about right. There is a long thread on the SASS forum about the smoke factor.
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Sounds right to me